Jovis Leigh Howieson has recently created a Facebook group called the “Urban Photographers Club” associated with her online ‘club’ of the same name: Urban Photographers Club. Today, she invited people to post to the Facebook group. So, I did – two images that I took in Dijon this evening.
Less than an hour after posting the images, these comments were added:
AP: “Graham. I don’t really classify these as street. so probably more for your own facebook friends than this Urban street photography group.”
Naturally, I replied:
“Well… thank you both for your opinions. With the greatest of respect, I beg to differ.
(1) These are URBAN – they were taken in Dijon which is one of the largest conurbations in Bourgogne – and by a PHOTOGRAPHER – myself. Therefore, in MY opinion, they are perfectly appropriate for this ‘URBAN PHOTOGRAPHERS club’.
(2) This ISN’T a STREET photography group, not that I would like to try to define that genre either. There are plenty of other Facebook groups devoted to “street photography”, of which I’m sure many of us are members. Clearly, this group was not established to simply replicate them.
(3) As far as I am concerned (just my opinion – though I would respectfully suggest no less significant than yours’) they are good examples of “photographie surréaliste de la vie réelle” or “art de rue involontaire”.
I would welcome more contributions of these genres from the other 93 members of this group.
Best wishes, Graham”
Of course, at the end of the day, it is Jovis’ shout as to whether they are acceptable for her ‘club’. If they aren’t then I shall exert my Grouchian right and leave it.
A double positive emerged, though, in researching my answer. I’d simultaneously posted my pictures in the Groupe Surréaliste Internazionale and look forward to seeing how they are received. This prompted me to reflect on how I would describe this kind of image. Two terms emerged:
o “photographie surréaliste de la vie réelle” = Surreal real-life photography
o and “art de rue involontaire” = Unintentional Street Art
While I don’t know when I sense a new little photobook on this theme is to be born.
Needless to say, one of these self-appointed moderators replied:
AR: “hi Graham. I see your point and you’re right, this isn’t a 100% street group, it is urban photography. It’s not my call but we do need to make sure that what we do post leans more into the photographic (or in relation to) rather than, as I think Andy was getting to, more casual social media type posts. Now I don’t know if I’m losing my marbles but I think I saw a picture you posted earlier of a plant or something that also looked out of place but I can see you’ve deleted it now so you must know what I mean.”
My response: “Thank you, Adam. Respectfully, I think you ARE losing your marbles. (1) I haven’t posted anything else to this group previously, let alone deleted it. (2) I am sorry that you consider the very well-established genre of photo-surrealism ‘casual social media type posts’. Therefore (3) I do NOT know what you mean.
Perhaps you’d both like to read this introduction to the topic by the V&A – https://www.vam.ac.uk/articles/surrealist-photography before you diss the work of Eugène Atget, Man Ray, Lee Miller, and many others.”
AR: “Graham Wilson an interesting article on a genre I’m no expert but have seen some work on. I’m struggling to see the link between your post and this genre however. Might just be me though, it doesn’t mean it’s not of the genre.”
Suddenly, I twigged – I don’t think the chap actually understands the word ‘surreal’. I also tried to take a look at some of his images on the internet, which proved harder than you might expect as he’s posted very few. In the end, I found some here: Journal | checkmybadself | VSCO
Graham Wilson: “AR, I see that you have done some of Brian Lloyd Duckett’s workshops, so you will be familiar with the concept of layering. One way in which this can happen is between two or more visual elements, such as an advertising hoarding and a passerby. There are many forms, but another is between elements of language documented in an image. Advertisers use wordplays like this all the time, as do graffiti artists, but some are accidental – and when this happens on the street, this is known as ‘unintentional street art’.
The adjective ‘surreal’ is used to describe two (or more) things occurring together when you would not expect them to do so, especially if there is something about them that feels a little ‘dark’ or ‘noir’. When they have not been contrived intentionally, and are observed in a photograph then they would be described as ‘surreal real-life photography’.
The image of the undertaker’s sign bizarrely telling the observer to murder is an example of the former. That of the funeral flower arrangement that proclaims that it is the “end of the line” is an example of the latter.
Both are surreal in that you would hardly expect a sensitive funeral director to be associated with either statement.
I hope that helps. There’s a lot more to street and urban photography than furtive images of random strangers.”
Brian reiterated my last sentence.
Jovis has now published the group description: “We established Urban Photographers Club to provide a platform and showcase photographers whose works deserve to be seen, appreciated, respected and acknowledged by audiences around the world providing well-deserved exposure by publishing and exhibiting on an annual basis at the base headquarters in London and various cities internationally.
We wanted to create an all-inclusive community where we could provide opportunities for meet-ups, photo walks, photo trips, workshops, learning & development support, feedback and critique and an easily accessible space to communicate and connect with like-minded photographers.
We support and encourage primary, secondary and university students where we help to shape these young minds to enter the world of photography through a very hands-on approach with leaders who take great care in educating and supporting their learning and development.
We cover Street, Documentary, Portraits, Street Portraits, Long Exposure, Travel, Urban Architecture, Urban Landscape, Cityscape, Nightscape, Landscape, Wild Life, Fine Art and Photojournalism.”
Hopefully, that will be an end to the exchange with these two. In the meantime, I’ve learnt a lot about Eugene Atget and Man Ray’s approaches to urban photography, and had a chance to practice some of this at the castle at Châteauneuf-en-Auxois.
UPDATE – 21 August
It seems that this ‘debate’ isn’t over yet…
KMR: “Graham Wilson just reading this after coming back off holiday and I must admit I agree with AR as I don’t think either of these images really work as you may have intended and also don’t appear to fit the photo-surrealism genre as you state.
It’s a stretch to say the sign for the funeral director is a play on words to some alternatively spelt Sudanase [sic] word for “murder”, which your average viewer wouldn’t know. IMO it is just a black and white photo of a sign.
The flowers and the “fin de serie” sign has potential but there is no real context to link it to the funeral director or even death. If they were on a coffin or even had the funeral director sign in the background it could work. Alternatively, I did spot a white lily in the bunch, which is a funeral flower, but it’s not that prominent and gets lost with the image being black and white. Again, IMO, it’s just a black and white photo of some flowers in a window. If it hadn’t been due to the interesting exchange between you and Adam, I would have just scrolled past.
Thanks for sharing though and highlighting photo-surrealism, a genre I hadn’t really looked into.”
Naturally, I responded: “
Hmmm… Well, thanks Kenny too for your feedback.
I guess that the first thing that we have established is that it is deemed acceptable to criticize (cf critique) people’s work in this group even if the individual hasn’t invited feedback. This is not an automatic assumption on many Facebook photography groups but the three of you seem to have adopted this approach.
The second would appear to be that this is an English-only group. I guess that you won’t therefore be interested to know that Sudan was a French imperial colony from 1880 to 1960, and so signs with French and Sudanese words are not uncommon, and have particular significance in these decolonialisation days.
I doubt if any French person would have any difficulty recognizing a ‘raquette funeraire’, which is one of the most common mourning arrangements with deep symbolism in the three predominant flowers and the shape resembling a float travelling along the river Styx.
I’m glad that all three of you have been enlightened as to the nature of surrealism. I do find it interesting that you feel qualified to judge someone else’s work when you all three say that you don’t know anything about the genre, but no doubt when you all post something here we can get to know your interests in urban photography too. Meanwhile, here’s three more examples of the same kind of ‘photographie surréaliste de la vie réelle’ for your enjoyment…”
KMR: “Graham Wilson I see my error as I believed I was joining an ongoing discussion rather than providing single critique. I also failed to notice that my quick dive into the known names you provided from that genre, and some of the interesting images they produced, precluded me from commenting on such highfalutin art others produce.
Lesson learnt.
Fin.”
Graham Wilson: “KMR As far as I can see, you weren’t commenting on other people’s art, you were commenting on mine.
Choosing not to engage in an understanding of the wider perspectives on urban photography is a personal decision. That doesn’t necessitate derogatory labels like ‘highfalutin’ for those of us who do.”